CD1

(66 mins)
 

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BORN SOUTHAMPTON 1912 / TITANIC / FAMILY BACKGROUND / PARENTS CONTORTIONISTS / NOTTINGHAM CONVENT / LIVING WITH AUNT / RELIGION / DICKENSIAN SOCIETY / ELOCUTION LESSONS

[recorded 31.1.2001]

Born Southampton 1912. Went to school at 5. Born 3 months after Titanic went down, half children at school had no fathers.

She was an unwanted child. Parents contortionists. They went on tour and left her with an aunt. She didn't like her mother. Didn't understand or know her parents. Her elder sister was agile and went with them, she was used in their act. It was a silent act. Her parents went abroad. They had had another girl by then and the aunt couldn't cope with the two of them, so she went to a convent in Nottingham. Her father's parents lived there. Her grandfather was an undertaker. She went to the convent at 8. Her sister took her. NM could put her legs round her neck. The nuns didn't take to her. Her mother was very showy. She was at the convent for 4 years. Very lonely. Not happy. One Christmas she joined her parents in Scotland.

Eventually she went back to her aunt, at 12 or 13. She was Catholic then, thought going to Protestant church was a mortal sin. So she trekked on her own to Southampton cathedral. But they didn't talk to her, so her aunt suggested she went to chapel. She was very popular there, because she could recite beautifully. Joined the Band of Hope and signed the pledge. They had a Dickensian Society. An old gentleman, very wealthy, heard her and asked if she'd like to help with his recitals. He arranged elocution lessons for her. That went on for 2 or 3 years and covers a very nice part of her life. [Back to top]
 

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DRAPER'S JOB / TOM MACKNEY / AMATEUR DRAMATICS / EARLIER BOYFRIEND / MISERABLE CHILDHOOD / TOM'S FAMILY / WEDDING / HARD UP

When she was 16/17, she worked for a drapers. Tom Mackney was a shop floor walker. She met him in amateur dramatics. He was the funniest man she'd ever met in her life. They got very friendly. She was torn between him and an earlier boyfriend. She felt safe with Tom. She wanted to get married, she had had such a miserable childhood. She wanted a home and children. Tom was from a wealthy family with a big drapery business in Kingston on Thames. He was never happy being a draper. He was an actor. He didn't get on with his family. They got engaged.

Tom fell out with his parents. They had a miserable wedding in Folkestone. They had no money and she had to choose between a wedding cake and a ring.

They knew nothing about contraception. To her horror she fell pregnant immediately. Tom worked for McIlroys [?sp]. She was about 21. They were desperately hard up. She wore no stockings in the summer. [Back to top]
 

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IN-LAWS / TOM / FIRST BABY / LIVING WITH IN-LAWS / SURBITON AND SOUTHAMPTON

They went back to her in-laws because his mother had cancer. Tom was offered a good job in Maidstone. Manager. He didn't do well. They'd saved £12 for her to go into the nursing home. He got the sack just before she went in. His parents came to the rescue. So she came out with no home and they had to go back to his family. It was a wrong beginning. Her mother-in-law was domineering, wouldn't let Tom get close to the baby.

Tom found a flat just outside Surbiton. Eventually he got a job in the city. She was in this flat with the baby on her own. Eventually his mother died. Tom got the sack again. They went to her aunt in Southampton. They were there 6 or 8 months.

It was getting up to the war years then. They joined a dramatic society. Got a lodger. [Back to top]
 

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WAR YEARS / EVACUATION TO AXFORD / SECOND SON AND DAUGHTER / LOCK-UP BUSINESS

Tom joined the Specials. It was coming up to the first scare, when they first thought the war was coming. She was pregnant again. [phone rings] She and Michael (her son), went to live near Marlborough, near Axford, with some people Tom had known. She had worked in his father's shop. NM wasn't happy there. The woman was a lesbian and had a lady friend there and didn't really want NM. She was there 3 weeks. Then it all died down, it was the Chamberlain business and there wasn't going to be any war, so she came back. Then there was a big scare and she was evacuated again back to Axford. Big bombing on Southampton was just about to happen. She had another boy, sadly, she wanted a girl. That was Roger, in Savanack [?sp] hospital. Went back to Axford. She was most miserable there, doesn't think the woman wanted them. The war people paid them, because she was an evacuee.

She was so miserable with them that she moved in with another woman. Then they came back to Southampton. She wanted a girl so badly that she had another baby. Had Heather.

While she was in the nursing home doodlebugs came down. They had to get under the bed.

Tom's father died. They had £4000. They got a little house and lock up business on the outskirts of Southampton. They did well. She put Heather in a nursery. She was in the shop. They decided to look for a business where they could live over. [Back to top]
 

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RENTING DULVERTON DRAPERS / OLD STOCK / CHILDREN'S SCHOOLING

They came to look at the drapers in Dulverton in February. It was pouring with rain. It had been on the market for 2 years. It was lunchtime, everything was closed. She thought it was a ghost town. The shop was called Thorne Brothers, very old fashioned. Run by two old brothers who were anxious to sell it and get out. But they hadn't got that sort of money. There was about £8000's worth of stock there.

The shop was dreadful. Everything was dark brown. Everything was in packets, ladies bloomers, this, that and the other. A bit of everything. Loads of toilet rolls. A lot of farming stuff. Tom was very taken with it. They had it on a rent and were letting themselves in for years and years of debt. They were only there [in Dulverton] that day. She was miserable. Eventually they moved in June, 1950/51. Things were still rationed.

It was a different world when she got there in June. Everything was in bloom. She was still terribly homesick. There were 7 bedrooms. Eventually they got some heating.

They bought a lot of the existing stock cheap because it was so old fashioned. Had an enormous sale. There was a great big queue at 6 o'clock in the morning. Some real bargains there. Even today, at 89, she meets the odd person who remembers their opening. They improved the shop, had lovely modern fittings, everything on show.

When they went there, there was a coal stove in the shop and the 2 girls who worked there sat round it knitting. They soon altered all that. They took the 2 girls on as well.

There was only the village school. Roger went to grammar school in Taunton. Michael stayed in Southampton. He didn't want to come with them. Heather went to the top school. [Back to top]
 

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TOWNIES / MAKING MISTAKES / MILLINERY / BUILDING UP BUSINESS / BUYING PREMISES / HEATHER'S EDUCATION / BECOMING ACCEPTED / PANTOMIME / DRAMA / MICHAEL /JOINING THINGS / DULVERTON PLAYERS / SWAN SONG

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They weren't popular in the beginning. They were considered townies. It took them a long time to get the hang of it. They made a lot of mistakes. But they learnt as they went along. She loved the millinery. She used to buy the hats. She'd meet the travellers at the Imperial Hotel, Taunton and Bristol.

Gradually they had very good business. It grew and grew. They were just getting their debts down. They bought the premises. People thought they were well off, but in fact they were hard up.

Heather was growing up. She was as rough as rough. So they sent her to the convent in Tiverton. Tom said he hadn't got any money to pay it, so she paid for it herself, struggled and struggled. Heather eventually went on to Taunton Tech. She did extremely well there and eventually got in the BBC, which is where she met her husband.

They had 27 years in that shop. They weren't popular, but people began to understand them better, especially Tom, once he had a chance to get on the stage and they joined the drama [Dulverton Players], and of course he did the pantomimes. They did that pantomime for 10 years, on a wonderful scale. Twelve scenes, full orchestra. They even took it on tour to Williton, and Wiveliscombe. He used to play Dame, and he was a wonderful Dame. Heather used to play Principal Boy and Roger used to be Buttons. It was a family thing. She wasn't in the pantomime, she was on the drama side. That changed their lives completely.

Michael did come and join them for quite a while, but he and Tom didn't get on. Then he went back to Southampton and had to go in the forces.

She thinks town people aren't popular [when they come to a rural community]. She was miserable. She did try. She joined everything. She joined the Mothers Union, the WI. The trouble was Tom was very outspoken, about hunting and everything. In those days, hunting, if the blooming thing came down in the leat their girls would rush right out, leaving the customer! They were staggered, and he did stop that. But he was unpopular. But as time went on and they did all the show biz, they got to understand him and they were all right.

She was secretary of the WI for some years. She went to a big meeting at the Albert Hall. By then they'd been accepted. They were very friendly with Margaret and Len How at the grocers shop.

They had some wonderful parts [in Dulverton Players]. Play after play. She was 78 when she came to Hanover Court [sheltered housing, where recording is taking place]. She was playing the lead in 'Waiting in the Wings', just before she moved to Hanover Court. All her family were in the audience on the last night. It was her swan song. Her last performance. [Back to top]
 

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TOM TOP DOG IN BUSINESS / SELLING TEA TOWELS / HYPERMARKETS / SHOP WINDOWS / STOCK / RETIRING / BUILDING BUNGALOW / SELLING MACKNEYS / HANOVER COURT SHELTERED HOUSING / WORKING IN TOWN

Tom, as manager of the business, was top dog. He had 2 or 3 girls and her. One old boy, Mr Snow, was there to begin with. Tom blamed her if things didn't sell well.

They wanted to have something to sell the visitors in the summer. So they had a photo taken of the bridge and the cottage and sent it to Ireland to be made into linen tea towels. They had to take hundreds and hundreds and were very afraid. But it did very well. They sold hundreds and hundreds of them, with 'Dulverton' on them.

Things changed. People stopped wearing hats [pause to draw curtain against the sun]. Hypermarkets and cars came in. They started closing on Saturday afternoons. They were open 9-5, and later on closed Thursday afternoon. As time went on they were getting older and Tom wasn't well.

They don't do windows like you did in those days. It was all glass shelves and Tom would be bending and stooping all the time. He'd put everything in the window, from every department, a little bit of underwear. They used to sell a lot of wool, and underwear, and fashions, and gents' wear. They did pretty well everything, selling everything from a pin to a pram. Materials, mattresses, lino, everything. But the doctor warned him he shouldn't be bending and stooping. They packed it in when Tom was 65. Luckily they had a garden and were able to have a lovely bungalow built in it, in time for their retirement.

The business was on the market for a long time. They had wanted to sell the goodwill. In the end they stopped buying, ran it down and sold it as an empty property. Very sad. They didn't get as much as they should have done. All the lovely fixtures went for a song.

Antique dealers bought it. Quickly split it up. They [she and Tom] were there 27 years. Both of them were hopeless at accounts, so they had someone from outside. He came on 15 February. They were petrified when he was coming. Tom wasn't clever enough. They didn't do badly. The bungalow was their biggest asset. They moved in 1973. Had 17 years there. Then Tom died. She was there 18 months on her own. Then they were building Hanover Court. Roger, her son, put her name on the list. Thank God he did. She was one of the very first. She has a lovely little flat. They sold the house, just before that terrible depression, so they were lucky.

Things at Hanover Court have altered since she was there. It's nothing like it was. When Tom died she nearly moved near Heather, at Kingston on Thames. Then changed her mind. Now if she's feeling terribly miserable and down she can always go up the road. She'll always meet somebody to have a chat to, what with having the business, the drama and the church. Since she retired she's worked in all the shops in Dulverton. She worked in John Hills menswear and loved it. She worked until she was 83. [Back to top]
 

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INTERESTS NOW / FAMILY / HANOVER COURT MANAGER / ENTERTAINMENT / DAY CENTRE / HAIR DRESSER / GOING OUT

Now she reads a lot. She's keeping her life story written up, so does a bit of writing at times. She has a lovely family. Eight grandchildren and expecting her 6^th great-grandchild.

Hanover Court has a lovely manager, Janet, who is full of life, loving and kind. She calls them every morning on the phone to see if they're all right. She lays on lots of things to keep their brains going. Video, chat, quiz. The same people sit at the same tables. They play bingo and have a beetle drive. It gets them together. There is a day centre there on Tuesday and Friday. The hairdresser comes. She has her hair done every week. She has suddenly gone white. She dyed her hair for years and then stopped. Within 3 weeks she had gone white.

On Thursdays Mary Atkins, a friend, comes and baths her. She goes out. In the summer she goes out every afternoon. She can't walk far, but she can sit and watch, which is lovely. She sits near the Lorna Doone statue. [Back to top]
 

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HANOVER COURT / TELEVISION / DENTIST

Yes, she thinks if someone sat in your seat it would matter, they all like their own seats. They've had all sorts of changes with the cuts. The chef is leaving. They went through one phase with the meals when it all came in boxes and had to be warmed up. It wasn't successful. They have a very good meal. The really poorly people in the bedsits have a lot of help. At the moment, with difficulty, she can do everything. She has a little woman once a fortnight.

She watches a lot of television. She has a little one in the bedroom. She wakes very early and watches it at 6 o'clock. The early news. She doesn't watch it in the day. She watches all the soaps. Goes to bed 10.30-11.00. She doesn't get up at 6.00. She has a teapot and everything by her in bed and stays there until a quarter to eight.

She sits in her lovely reclining chair after lunch and goes to sleep. The dentist, Peter, comes to do her teeth. It's different from the old days, when she used to pay for five bobs' worth of gas and they'd pull out as many teeth as they could get. He rigs all his clobber up, washes his hands and puts his rubber gloves on. He's making her a new set of teeth. [door bell rings] [Back to top]