CD3

[45 mins]
 

3/1

NORTHMOOR / CLAYTON FAMILY / PARENTS' EMPLOYMENT / SELF-CONTAINED ESTATE

[recording resumed 25.1.2001, 2 months before TT died from cancer. Mark Rattenbury, the photographer, in background for first part of recording].

[BJ refers to earlier recording of August 2000 and asks about his time at Northmoor] Between Uffculme and Northmoor he spent 4 to 5 years at Luppitt. So it's really when they moved from Luppitt to Northmoor. He was 12. It was quite different in those days. 1932. They hadn't quite come out of Victorian times. Northmoor was a self-contained estate. It had its own gardeners, its farm. It had its own staff indoors, a cook and kitchen maid, butler, nanny. Because there were Colonel and Mrs Clayton, and 2 children. And also they employed a man who went around and kept the estate tidy. All the paths were all cut, tidied, hedges cut. The paths through the woods were all maintained. Beautifully maintained. And it was quite a different world.

Of course at that time, the girls who worked in the house were only allowed out on a Thursday afternoon and a Sunday. That was all.

It was quite a different world really. There were Colonel and Mrs Clayton, and the staff, underneath. You were on 2 levels. They had a motorcar. He wouldn't pick you up, if he saw you on the road. You walked. Except on Easter Sunday. When they would come around and ask if you wanted a lift to church. His mother always said, No; she'd walked all the other days, she'd walked to Dulverton and back and she was capable of walking there on Easter day. So, it was an entirely different world, which went on of course until the war came and things changed. Changed drastically. Yes.

[BJ asks how many staff they would have had before the war] Before the war. They would have had 2 in the kitchen, one, 2. A tweenie maid 3, butler 4. They would have had about 5. A tweenie maid would do odd jobs. Then there was always the nanny. The children were about 8, 10 when he went there. Of course one is David Clayton, who BJ knows [BJ says she knows of him]. He's rather withdrawn is David, he doesn't know why. He saw him the other day. David is very nice. Very, very nice. The other one was Diana. She got killed on the motor road. She wasn't all that old. No, they [we] weren't there then. She died in the '40s, '50s. They left in '38, just before the war.

TT and his parents lived in the lodge, down by the gate. That was quite nice. Yes. It was quite nice. Not a bad house. Couldn't grumble with the accommodation really. His father used to do all sorts. Look after the car, clean it, wash it. Any other odd jobs that were going. There was a whole mixture of jobs to do.

[BJ asks about his mother] Mother used to go over and help out sometimes. But not very often. She didn't go working daily. Some did. But in fact, it could have survived as a community. They grew their own food, with the farm, and garden. It's amazing really how self-contained these estates were.  [Back to top]
 

3/2

PLAYING / OTHER CHILDREN / LUPPITT VICARAGE LIFE / MOTHER AN ORGANISER / REFRESHMENTS / MRS AMORY

[BJ asks whether there were any particular members of staff he was friendly with] Not really. One of the cooks used to come down, when she had a bit of time off she'd come down, with mother and father, but not really. No.

[BJ asks how he filled in his time] How did he fill in his time? He didn't have a lot of trouble, filling in time. Because then you see, from 1936 he was playing the church organ down there [Brushford, where recording is taking place]. So there were practices and things and he had to come up and down to Brushford. He doesn't know, he never had any trouble filling in his time.

[BJ asks if the other staff had children] Oh yes. He saw one the other day, the Garlands, down on the farm. He saw Betty the other day. She was around. She lives in Taunton now, married, called something else, he doesn't know what now. Yes, then there was Rolf, she had a brother. He doesn't know what became of Rolf. Yes, he was friendly with them. They would go down the farm. And Bert Cockram lived up over the woods, Old Shute. Bert would come down. He was about their age, within a year or 2. He doesn't know what they did. They just used to play, go down the farm and play, nothing particular. No.

One or 2 of the children might come out from Dulverton. That would be all right. But no, they didn't do an awful lot really.

[BJ asks if he has a visual picture of the place at all] No, he doesn't know [pause]. But it was a part of his life, he supposes. Yes, it was. And rather a shock really for him, because he'd come from a vicarage. And there he was living an entirely different life. He was treated sort of middle, upper class nearly, by the parishioners, because he lived in the vicarage. Not that he was related to the parson, but the fact that he lived there. And of course there was a motorcar and everything that went with it. And he was living quite a nice life, from 8 to about 12, when suddenly that was kicked away from him. And he had nothing. And he had to pick himself up and say, 'You've got to sort yourself out.' Which, he thinks affected him all his life really, this chopping and changing as he was growing up.

[BJ asks him how he felt when he got to Dulverton] He was there, went to school, got on with it. Yes. Yes, he'd left friends behind, but not his own age. There were some slightly older. And he still goes back and sees them now. There were 2 families, 2 farming families. And he still rings them, and he still goes back. He never lost touch there. They are now at the back end of their 80s. So, he's 80 and they were several years older, middle 80s at least, 86, 88. But none of them [us] will be around much longer [laughs].

[BJ asks what his mother did] Mother? He doesn't know, apart from housewife, nothing much else. No. She could organise. She could organise. A terror for organising. And when she did, she did. And everyone ran. If she said, 'Do it,' you did it. And that meant now, not some time in the future. [BJ asks what kind of things she organised]. The children used to do folk dancing, and the Women's Institute. Mothers Unions. Socials they used to have. Various things with refreshments.

 Oh dear. There's an awful funny story once. Mother couldn't have been there all that while. She said she'd see to the refreshments. That meant, right, she was seeing to the refreshments [tells story verbatim]. He doesn't know, everything was going on all right. She went out to the kitchen to see what was happening and the women doing the work had stopped. They said they couldn't do any more as they had to wait for Mrs Amory to come, so she could look over what they had done, and approve it, before they continued. His mother said indeed they wouldn't wait, they would start then and finish it. That was an order, so they did it [laughs]. Any rate, Mrs Amory came. Mrs Amory never even looked. And he doesn't think Mrs Amory really knew what was going on. What they'd done was a custom, and he honestly doesn't think she knew.

[BJ asks what they were organising] Refreshments for a social. That was all. [BJ asks why Mrs Amory would have been involved] Mrs Amory was quite likely president, at that time. She would have been, up at Hele Manor. But, these funny things used to happen [laughs].  [Back to top]
 

3/3

FATHER BELLRINGER / BEE KEEPING

Going back, yes. Father liked his bell ringing. Father was different altogether. Father was quiet. He liked his bell ringing. And he would sing. Sing in the choir. Do his garden. Oh, and bees. Dreadful bees, terrible. Awful things. [BJ asks if he helped him] Not likely. They used to take the honey off, when all the bees had gone and settled. He didn't mind going down and helping, then. But there's one thing he misses, with the bees. And that is, you take the honey off. He expects BJ knows, there's capping isn't there? You have these big frames, and the honey's capped. The bees seal it in. So any rate, this is sealed in. Now, to get the honey out you have to have a sharp knife and just cut off this wax and you put it on a dish. Of course there's honey on it. And that honey will run out. Right, so you extract all the honey, it all comes out into a big container, and away you go home, and you take the dish home, with the wax on and the honey. Now you have that for tea, that day, then. And honey never tastes the same again. There's a tang about it, you can't describe it. But the next day it's gone, it's lost. Because the honey's still warm, from the hive, and it's got the most peculiar tang, which is beautiful. Of course that's what the bees eat.

[BJ asks what they would have it on] On some bread. Bread, and a bit of cream, if you could get it, would be nice. Yes. It was nice.

[BJ asks if they were his father's bees] Yes. No, he couldn't stand bees. They sting, oh they sting terribly. He could lecture on bees for hours [laughs], but to go near them no, no not likely. [BJ asks what they would wear]. Father would always wear a veil, but never gloves. Because he said you couldn't do anything with a pair of gloves on. And he'd come home and his hands would be all swollen. He'd say, 'Oh yes, I suppose I must have.' But he wouldn't feel it, he had no feeling at all. It's quite amazing how you get stung like that, and take no notice of it at all. But there was one thing he [his father] always said, because the bees could get really nasty, they can be savage. And you get a hive of bees, the bees might not know you too well, and they see you coming and they say, 'Right, we'll drive him. We'll have him today. We'll pitch him.' And they would. But Father said you opened the beehive, you did exactly what you intended to do, you took all the bits and pieces out, and you put all the bits and pieces back, and you shut them down. And the bees would go back in the hive. And father said if you hadn't done that, you would never have gone there again. If you'd panicked, and left the thing half open, you'd never go back to that hive again. They'd see to that. They'd say, 'Right, he went last time, he'll go this time.' [laughs]

[BJ says it sounds like a relationship between his father and the bees] Oh yes. A battle, yes. If you have a battle with them, it's you or them. It's going to be one of you [who loses]. But Father said it always had to be the bees [?who wanted to dominate]. And he thinks it's the same with any animal, on a farm. The farmer's got to be boss, even if he's got to wallop and beat the animal. It's got to do what he says.

[BJ asks what his father was like] What was father like? Oh, he doesn't know. There's a photograph of him back there [BJ says she remembered he showed her last time and that she believes he had a violin]. He used to play the violin, yes. Yes.  [Back to top]
 

3/4

FATHER AND MOTHER / SOCIAL EVENINGS / DRAMA / MR AND MRS STUBBS / 'HANSEL AND GRETEL' / PAINTING SCENERY

He used to teach the violin a little. He thinks he got music from [his father]. He had a mixture. He thinks he got his ability for music from Father, because he thinks a lot of his grandparents, and great grandparents, used to have violins and tambourines and things. And he remembers Father saying they used to go around to dances, playing. Take their tambourines and violins. And the Troakes used to do that. There's always been this music, there.

[BJ asks where his father used to play the violin] Oh, they had a social, in Dulverton. Father would play, they'd find some little pieces to play. That's about all they ever did out there. They'd say, 'Oh Mr Troake will play us something.' They used to have those little social evenings in those days. But they've disappeared. Someone would play something, someone would sing. And then perhaps, oh, a couple of the girls would sing; they might have learnt a song and a little dance sort of thing. Oh, and then somebody had thought up a sketch, yes. And they used to have all these evenings, and they were great fun.

[BJ asks who thought up the sketches] Oh, mother was one of them. Mother liked her drama, she was very good at drama. She used to do these character bits. She used to do these character bits, you know. The woman who comes in to clean, with the vacuum cleaner, and all this. His mother used to like doing that. She was very good at it. She was very good with her timing, and her presentation. Mother was quite a good actress, especially on those parts. She never much attempted anything else. But she enjoyed her drama.

[BJ asks if his parents did things together] Yes, he supposes so. But they tended more - if Father was doing something, they would go; if Mother was doing something, they would go. If TT was doing something, they would come. Yes. Always thinking up something, they were. They went wild once and did a school version of 'Hansel and Gretel' [indistinct]. The parson's wife thought up that. That was Mrs Stubbs, when the Stubbses were there. They were as wild as hawks, they were, the pair of them. Nothing to choose between them. [BJ asks in what way] He doesn't know. They were just wild [laughs]. They were erratic, yes. The pair of them. She was very good at doing some of these things. They did 'Hansel and Gretel'. And they had to have this forest painted, so the schoolmistress down there did that. She was pretty good with a brush. They had that done. And Mrs Maund and TT, Ellen Maund was much younger then, he was much younger - they said they had to have an enormous great sheet. he doesn't know how they came by it, going right across the stage. It had to be sized, they said, for the paint to hold. Oh yes, they [TT and Ellen Maund] said, they'd do that. They put it on the snooker table down there, to size it. What they didn't realise was that the size was going to run down over, and across the floor. Oh, what a mess it was. They didn't only size the cloth, but they had size all over the floor. Any rate, the caretaker came up, a great big man he was. And he was not happy. So he gave one look at it and said he wasn't coming in the hall again until it was all cleaned up, washed up, and back in the state it was when they started. Cor, anyway, they got it back somehow, God knows how, he doesn't know. Oh dear [laughs] these things did happen.  [Back to top]
 

3/5

NORTHMOOR POST-WAR / GARDEN / BREAK UP OF ESTATE / MOVE TO BRUSHFORD / SOCIAL LIFE / HELPING / BARROW AND CHAPMAN / LEARNING

[BJ says he said Northmoor changed with the coming of the war] Well it did, yes. You see after the war, it was a different life, wasn't it? You couldn't get girls to go into service. They'd come out of the army, they weren't going up there, and come out on a Thursday afternoon and a Sunday afternoon. So all that changed. And then, wages went up. Staff had to be cut [pause]. That's right, poor old Quick, the forestry man, he went. That meant paths were no longer done, they started to overgrow. The garden - 2 men in the garden, you couldn't have 2 men in the garden. One. Well then it wasn't done properly. And he thinks the garden was let out once, there were just 2 old ladies did it he thinks. Took away the produce. But what had once been beautiful, was gone.

Part of the house was shut down, [indistinct] open. Because before the war there were vines there, vines growing, grapes. They were all picked. Peaches, nectarines. Great greenhouses, they all had to be heated. And then of course heating went up. The cost of heating, that went. So the thing gradually disintegrated.

[BJ asks what had they done with the peaches and nectarines] Well they used to go into the house. Yes. Yes that was for the house.

 [BJ asks what happened to Mr Quick] He doesn't know where he went or what happened to him. He went. Because they'd left by then. The farm people went. The farm was sort of sold off, bits were sold off. What was once rather a lovely estate sort of came down to something for 2 or 3 people just to live in a big house.

[BJ asks if Colonel Clayton was still there] He was yes until he died. David was there until, he doesn't know, 10, 20 years ago he supposes. He still lives down on the farm now. Got a cottage there. He had a bit of land.

[BJ says and then he and his parents moved to Brushford] They were living in Brushford by 1938, yes.

[BJ asks if he spent all his life living with his parents, and what was it like] Yes. It was all right, yes. He didn't mind. Mind he always had a lot to do. He was always out a lot. This is what he's missing now. Because rarely is he in of an evening. Now he's had to stop it. [BJ asks what he does of an evening] Watch the television. Never seen so many adverts in all his life. But, you know he's always been involved in a lot of things. Both in Dulverton and Brushford, from one to the other. He never seemed to be looking for things to do, he doesn't know.

[BJ asks if people come and visit him, TT responds as if question is about the past] Yes. Oh if they wanted anything, yes. Usually. [Asking] what could he do, could he do this, could he do that? Will he be here, will he be there? Yes. He used to run the garden club flower show. He likes doing administration, he loves doing that.

[BJ says she wanted to ask him, because last time he said that he went to work for Barrow and Chapman at the age of 15, 16, what that was like] Very nice, yes. Yes, yes. He had to learn. Mind you they did learn in those days. All his life, he thinks, he found it - at school, if you couldn't do something, you stayed there until you could do it. And he found it was the same in Barrow and Chapman. If he couldn't do something, he had to stay there until he could do it. Or else you had to use your wits somehow to find some way around it. So he was pretty good at doing. So in the end he got by.

[BJ asks what did he do there] Ooh, odd jobs, yes. He was there until he was 19. Quite interesting yes, it was a mixture of things. And he rather likes that. [pause for cup of tea]  [Back to top]
 

3/6

BECOMING A NATIONAL PARK / DULVERTON RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL / LOCAL GOVERNMENT REORGANISATION

[BJ says, now that they've paused it would be nice if he could play something on the piano for her, if he wouldn't mind] Yes, he expects so. [BJ suggests he has a think about something to play, adding that they have talked so much the time before, and today, that she thinks it would be nice to have a bit from the piano. Because the only other thing that she hadn't asked him about last time were things like whether he was aware of the national park being designated in 1954] Oh yes, very much so. In fact he always says that, originally, from what he saw, the Exmoor national park boundary was coming right down to the edge of these woods, Allersdown Woods. But it didn't, it cut up across. But he's sure he saw a plan. Sort of following the edge of the wood around, he doesn't know what happened.

Yes, they were, very much. With a lot in the newspapers about it.

[BJ asks how he felt about that] He doesn't really know, it was interesting. He thinks the feeling was, 'Well, we'll see what happens; we'll see how they get on with it.' And of course it's grown into something mammoth now, and whether that's actually necessary, he doesn't know. With its own planning authority. Things could be getting duplicated up. Work between County and the Park, doing park, and District. They've got to be awfully careful, local government, that they don't duplicate stuff. Then they start sending magnificent reports which cost the earth, and they start sending them to one another. And that costs money. One begins to suddenly think, 'Well, could there be an easier way of doing that?' A cheaper way, perhaps not such an elaborate way. But.

[BJ asks how different was it when the authority came to Dulverton]. Well it was administered then by - let him think - West Somerset District Council didn't come into being, it would have been District, wouldn't it? Down here before the Exmoor National Park [Authority]. [BJ says the Rural District Council was in Exmoor House before] Yes, well, the whole area was administered by Dulverton Rural District Council. Now Dulverton Rural District Council as far as he can remember - because he was involved in it then, quite a lot, through Barrow and Chapmans - had a clerk, which was Mr Chapman. And then it had a sanitary officer. And of course they did the highways, so then you had to have a highway officer, there were 2 of those he thinks. And then you had to have a clerk, to do the wages. There was a sort of a clerk down there to do the administration. Effie Allen did that. Effie Allen was sort of assistant clerk. Yes. That was about what it was. And that administered the lot.

Then you suddenly decide to abolish that. It's working quite efficiently, very cheaply - get rid of it. Just dump the whole lot and go to something like West Somerset District Council. And then you set up a mammoth organisation. Well, what happened before? Everything worked without it. He knows there is more legislation, but no officer or anyone ever seems to be able to work without someone sitting on his right hand side to do his work for him. That's 2. In the event of the officer coming in TT would have said, 'Right, you sit there, there's your typewriter, your papers are there, your fax machine, and that's that. Get on and do your work.' And he'd get on and do it, wouldn't he? Oh  no, you have a secretary to do that.

You know, and so things start to multiply. He doesn't know. Then, you've got to have a County Council, and that makes more. And a National Park Authority, and a West Somerset District Council.  [Back to top]
 

3/7

LOCAL GOVERNMENT REORGANISATION / HUNTING / TOWN CLERK LETTERS

Then of course they decided, over at District, that West Somerset would go in with Taunton Dean. And that would have been one authority. Now that was quite a good idea. Because the whole area would have been covered by one authority, and you could have scrapped over half [the staff]. But no, someone high up the authority said they couldn't do that, they had to have all of them. It didn't make a lot of sense.

And, working on the parish council now. You sort of ring County and they tell you it's Williton, you'd better ring the District Council, they do that [relates exchange verbatim]. Then if you ring the District they tell you they do, but that they have no power to do anything and will you do it for them. Well, it's a job, isn't it? So you get passed back, and you don't know whether you're going to get passed back to Williton, or County. And you begin to get lost by then. And what District has got to do with highways, he doesn't know. And you know, the whole thing goes from one muddle to a bigger muddle. He doesn't know.

[BJ asks what he feels about hunting] Hunting? He's neutral he supposes. He really doesn't mind whether they hunt or not. Of course he has had to write letters supporting it, many. But then if you're a town clerk you write one letter on behalf of the council supporting the thing, saying that it will be a disaster for the whole community - and he thinks it would affect the community, yes - and then as a private individual you can go and write another letter saying that the whole thing should be abolished [laughs], So, you can write 2 different letters.

That's what being a town clerk means. Yes, you don't always agree with the letters you are writing. Yes, very much. But still, they tell you to write them, so you write them. So you sit down, you write a whole page. And there it is all beautiful, why it shouldn't be. That's what you're told to do. But it was an interesting life really, being a town clerk. Especially when you were a district councillor as well [BJ says she remembers him saying that in the earlier recording]. That's even more interesting, much more interesting.

[BJ suggests she lets him think about a piece of music to play]  [Back to top]
 

3/8

PIANO EXCERPT - SCHUMANN 'SONGS FROM CHILDHOOD' OP 68

[TT plays piano excerpt from Schumann's Album für die Jugend (Songs from Childhood), Op 68]

[END OF RECORDING]  [Back to top]